Dear BRKHappy new year, I hope you are well but please, please, step away from that pile of steaming dung that you called a test survival build before you become sick. Really that thing is giving off noxious vapors, and I think I see someones pet boar rolling in it!
How can I put it a way that a BM hunter would understand? Your SV spec was wrong in the same way that this BM spec is wrong. I think that's an adequate example, just like that BM build you've maxxed out talents that you shouldn't have maxxed, you've failed to max talents that you should have and you've completely ignored 2 of the best talents on the tree. If you wanted a decent, target dummy-smiting spec then you should have done what people do when they want a BM spec, you should have gone to find a blogger or forum or whatever where they specialise on being SV, and then you would have ended with a spec far more like this.
I can tell you immediately that using this spec and keeping serpent sting up constantly you would have (ignoring lock and loads) increased your dps by over 100! Lock and loads included is a difficult thing, it would depend how many you got, and if you used them for straight damage or if you used them for mana regen in AoTV. Also it would vary depending on which lock and load rotation you used.
In short there are many, many variables which are making BRK better at being BM than he is at being SV and, unfortunately, he has made little effort to counteract any of these, while it was an honor for you to become Small Purple-white Kitty for a while to try out SV, I think that SPK needs a lot more training before he's ready to go out onto the field
ps. I have nothing against BRK, he knows his spec inside out and, quite possible, back to front too, plus he does amazing things for the hunter community, but does seem he needs some help learning how to do my spec. I know he was only testing for himself, but I am a scientist (or will be in time) so I do find it slightly odd when people have 2 tests with wildly different parameters and expect to be able to draw any conclusions, then again he did say that he was being unscientific... well that just makes me mad how dare you be unscientific, just like your unscientific hatred of sporebats? Dammit BRK I'm going to take you down if its the last thing I do, you and all your sporebat hating cronies!
Wait? Your all still reading this? DAMN!
20 comments:
good timing. I've been wanting to drop BM spec for a while now, or at least prepare for dual spec with SV, but not been knowing where to start; i've always rolled with BM.
what i found helpful about BRK's discussions on builds was a tier by tier justification for his choices. Yes, it's often a wordy read, but also very usful for people who don't have the time to go in to some of the finer points of the theory craft.
Good points to both sides. BRK takes this or that but says why. It may not be the best SV reasoning since he's stuck in a BM mind...but at least he tries hehe
I like to give him the benefit of the doubt.
=P
I'm BM atm but that will possibly be changing due to certain changes in the next patch. I might test out SV again or maybe go back to being MM. I just don't know yet!
Raowr!
I'll mirror the other comments and say while BRK didn't do his best, he tried. I've been a long survival hunter myself, and switching to a test BM build I did the same kind of thing. Looked at the BM trees from a SV perspective, and got it "wrong".
Still, was educational. :)
Good to see the dwarf's got potential to turn to the dark side. (If only for two bursts of mana-depletion testing.)
I wasn't trying to belittle him, not at all. I've even been trying out Bm on the ptr! Though I haven't run any official numbers, I defiantly kill things faster as SV.
However what I did was I looked up (from BRK actually) what a BM talent tree should (roughly) look like, maybe I had one or 2 tweaks for preference (pet expertise = less dodges = less wolverine bites, so for a cunning pet I didn't want animal handler).
Its good to see BRK testing other builds, what I'd really like him to do now is to read all those comments people have made for him and try a proper Sv build, and not against a test dummy(no track mechanical = 5% less damage for the Sv hunter)but instead try it one day for a raid/instance and compare it to running the same instance as BM and Marks
Oh and jrb, I'm actually working on a talent overview for survival, I tend to get to the tier 2 talents then get depressed and need to cry for a few hours though... But expect a post like that sometime in the next few weeks or so.
Thank Elune, Sniper Training.
If I see one more idiot in the world say it's hard to keep proper range with this talent, I will break my Nessingwary 4ooo across their thick skulls.
Thanks for the smack down, now I can read about the SV talent and become better with it.
I was THE survival hunter in BC raiding for my guild. I also knew the BM spec front and back to help the other hunters.
Now I am back because SS spam was just too boring for me.
Ooo look so many new toys to master.
I have been thinking about trying out an SV build as well.
Unfortunately the machine I play Wow on suffered a major blue smoke leak yesterday, so I guess it will be a bit before I get to it.
LOL!! A mind like BRK's is so open to challenge that this type of thing is good clean fun for everybody! I really like this post, and as a BM hunter, that spec made me /shudder.
I hadn't discovered you yet- but I'll be back. You're genius. (figuratively and likely literally too. scientists usually have a decent IQ.) :)
After reading a few articles on the site here, including this one, I respecced my BM hunter to SV and I'm doing just as much dps as I was in BM (2000-2200)only having much more fun!
Thanks for the help on the site and you can expect me to be a new reader!
ive been a survival hunter forever and i gotta admit that it's been my experience that sinking any points into hunting party is useless...it doesn't proc enough to justify any points in it - throw points in places that helps your dps, or put them in the MM tree under efficiency. i was reading another blog yesterday that kinda helped me with my spec. here's the link to it. anyway, its bumped my dps up by about 250. maybe you can try it lienna and let us know what your experience was.
http://wotlkwiki.info/forum/showthread.php?t=4820&page=2
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/hunter/talents.html?tal=000000000000000000000000000053050011320000000000000005102002510033330503135300201
YY some things I didn't like on that build, no points in GFtT, too many points in expose weakness and 2/3 sniper training makes it look like you ran out of points early, however it would do high dps.
I can see the point of taking efficiency and dps talents over hunting party, but it depends on the group your in, if you always have a shadow priest or retridin providing replenishment, then go ahead and don''t spec in hunting party.
Its one of those variables, personal dps vs boosting other peoples mana and letting them dps (and heal) longer and harder, you know what chars are available for your groups so you know if you need to spend points in hunting party or not.
I'm going to be changing my build today, unfortunately I can't guarantee a shadow priest or retridin to be around so I'm sticking with a couple of points in hunting party: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=cZ0eVoohZe00iocIhxdAhcd
Oh and Gringott, sniper training is somewhat situational, on *some* bosses you can't go that far away, on *many* bosses you can and its no problem, but where its going to shine is with the reduction in cooldown of kill shot, 15% crit is a lot of our hardest-hitting shot.
yea i thought not having GFtT would be bad too - but its proved higher dps to take 1/2 in Rapid Killing.
I think Expose Weakness is our greatest asset, so this works for me. I have a ton ton of agility so i took all 3 points because i figure its more likely to proc being that my crit is super high in raids, than all 3 in Sniper since its so situational and very few bosses in LK can even let you get 30 yards, but a lot of creatures do have stuns - which is why more in surefooted and less in hawk eye makes sense. but i do agree that kill shot is super powerful and im excited for the patch to bring its CD to 15 sec.
But your new build is almost identical to this one i found minus the few things above. My main problem is that Hunting Party is horrible, it only generates mana 40% of the time that only 3 shots crit - but really only 2 since Arcane and Explosive share the same CD. and even at that it only regens about 250 mana appx over 15 sec. thats like 1 or 2 shots. Shadow priests and pally can control their mana regen, thats why Ret is so awesome to have around. I wish Blizz would bring back the raid wide expose weakness instead of giving us this hunting party. boo! but hey if theres a hunter around that wants to sacrifice dps for giving out a little bit of mana - wonderful. im never one to turn it down!
helping the raid is important and if that is what players want they can also use imp hunters mark with the glyph of hunters mark - making your mark 50% more powerful -- an add'l 450 atk power for all ranged players...kinda sweet.
The only problem I have with sniper training, is that it is close to useless once you start trap-dancing. Sure you can run in and out using only instants to do so, but then you still loose your auto-shot dps.
I think the best solution for blizz is to change our 41pt talent to allow SV hunters to use any trap like Freezing Arrow. It would complement LnL very nicely, since we could stay at range and still get our trap procs out of it.
The thing with hunting party is, while it procs only from 2 shots that you actually use, they are the 2 shots that you use the most and explosive even has 3 chances to proc it each time, so its really not as hard to keep up as it seems. The mana regeneration is fairly low, but that's because it affects 10 people, if you have around 10k mana then its a little under 400 mana back every 15 seconds, that's 4800 mana over 3 minutes which isn't a half-bad number.
Improved hunters mark + glyph are nice, but more selfish than you'd think, only hunters really get much use out of ranged attack power, other than that you might be adding a tiny bit to a warrior tanks pull or a rogue who's forced to use deadly throw on a runner. If your groups/raids tend to be hunter-heavy then try to convince one to take it though.
And yes, all survival hunters want our 41 point talent to allow us to fire all of our traps as arrows, we just have to pray blizzard listens. I'm worried they they might nerf lock and load proccing on traps to counter the trap-dancing, I hardly think its what blizzard had in mind.
Your blog is a breath of fresh air. I think BRK is overrated. There was another SV blog I used to read but he closed down over a year ago.
I went BM because I wanted to lazy level. Thinking about going back to SV just for a change of pace.
Hanover
I must really suck as a hunter then, because the bm spec you posted looked perfect to me (provided that hunter is hit capped)
I would absolutely love to hear what exactly is wrong with it
No, your not a sucky hunter I'm a sucky user of links, I linked to the good Bm build, the proper link would have been:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=ctbMdgxRVhMect0eVbo
and it will be in approx 5 seconds after I edit the post.
oh my... I see what you mean, that build is .... "wince"
Survival
* Lock and Load now has a 30 seconds cooldown.
* Explosive shot damage has been slightly decreased and now deal {RAP*0.16+428}-{RAP*0.16+428} Fire damage at level 80. (Down from {RAP*0.18+476}-{RAP*0.18+476})
http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=33476.0
it ends the fantasy of era of survival
The explosive shot damage reduction isn't that much, it still does *almost* double the damage it does in the live realms, it has double the benefit from attack power it has from live and still an extra 190 damage pet tick before attack power, in short its still going to be a nice spell.
Lock and load being on a 30 second cooldown is, indeed, a pain, but oddly it almost encourages trap dancing where you can guarantee you get the procs every 30 seconds whereas if your relying on serpent sting you only have a 36% chance to get a proc every 30 seconds (on one target) but you also have around a 20% chance to get 2 procs in 30 seconds
Survival on the PTR is better than it is in live, whether its better than BM I don't know, and to be honest I hope not, I hope all 3 hunter trees are equal in damage so people get to choose the one they enjoy most!
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